Episode 2 Empowering the next billion through design thinking
In conversation with Jani Pasha, the CEO of hyper-local news app Lokal, which got him featured in Forbes’ 30 Under 30 for Asia. He provides insight on the origins of Lokal, and we discussed his journey of creating it, the barriers and challenges, including language and technology, which had to be overcome through innovations in UX/UI design. All told, the discussion shines a light on what goes into targeting an sleeping-giant esque untapped market.
Get to know Jani, Lokal, and design innovations with us. Tune in now.
Hi, I’m Divanshu. And this is Business and UX story, a podcast by Onething design studio. To know more about us log on to www.onething.design. Business and UX story aims to meld the worlds of business and design, to unearth the latest and greatest innovations in the worlds of both and the minds behind them. We pick the brains of industry leaders, innovators and disruptors, from all across the startup and business landscape, and learn what makes the product click. Moreover, discovering how UX and UI design in particular holds the key to unlocking so many doors in the world of business. So whether you’re an established brand, having touched the lives of millions, or a startup looking to make a lasting impact, we’re sure there will be plenty to learn from the various discourses we engage in on the podcast, keep listening!
Hey guys, welcome to the second episode of Business and UX Story. Business and UX story, is a platform where we talk to leaders of tomorrow, disruptors of today, we understand the story, the story behind their startups, what made them do what they’re doing right now. We want to understand how design thinking changed the way they’re doing things, how they want to change things completely in the space they are in. In this episode of the podcast, I have Jani Pasha, as part of the speakers, as my guest today. And just a few words about Jani Pasha. Jani is an alumnus of IIT Kharagpur. He’s also CEO and co-founder of Lokal, I’ll tell you guys more about Lokal in a bit. You know, another feather in his cap, Jani Pasha is part of the Forbes 30 under 30 Asia list for 2020. You know, Jani, so it’s a great thing I think makes me really feel proud of you know, having this conversation with you. A bit about Lokal, Lokal is an app, as the name suggests it’s a hyper live life services and news interaction app made for the real Bharat. Not you know, targeted at Metro users or Metro, you know, internet users as usually other apps are. It’s an app aimed towards tier two and tier three towns and cities with a Y Combinator startup and as of today, it has 5 million downloads across three states. Jani, I would really like to welcome you as part of the discussion. And, you know, I would like to start if you can tell us more about the story of Lokal how the idea shaped up how the need or how you saw the need of this of this product and who are the user that you’re targeting.
Okay, thanks Divanshu for having me here. Nice to you know, it’s always nice talking to you. Lokal started in 2018. So, I will tell you a little bit more background about myself and my co- founder, so that you can understand the context a little more. I come from a small town called Kodad in Telangana, southern part of India, I graduated from IIT Kharagpur in 2013. Over the last seven years, I’ve been working in startups, you know, led product teams and co founded startups before. My co-founder Vipul Chaudhary he is an IIT Bombay alumni, he’s from Bhilwara, Rajasthan. He worked in Qualcomm for three and a half years, we met funnily when he was trying to sell a device that he built, when I was heading products in GoZoomo. So we met in that way, we kind of I found him to be really, really smart. And we stuck together and have been working together for the last five years, the first product that we built, is around in 2016, we built a news product that gives news in the form of a timeline, we built that product out of a conviction to kind of give news in the form of using the news with context and also eventually want to solve the fake news problem. We spoke with no users. We didn’t speak with any users when we built that and we couldn’t find a lot of adoption to that product. So realizing the mistake that we’d done, that we have done, we went back to the drawing board, we interviewed 400 people from friends and family members, family members of family members who are from this town, and to understand the content consumption or preferences in their content consumption. And we found that when we interviewed people from this Metro parts and non Metro parts of the country, we realized that we found a very stark contrast between the content preferences of people who are staying in the cities and the non city or non Metro parts of the country. People in this town that rely heavily on newspaper to an extent that 350 million copies of newspaper gets sold in India today which is very, very surprising. We kind of try to understand this, heavier more. You know, people from this town struggle on what is happening on a national level and state level is available, content information is available on 24 seven news channels Facebook and WhatsApp. But what is happening around them is only available on their newspapers. 70 percentage of the people that we spoke to in this town have not traveled farther than their registered district. They are living generationally in their towns. Their parents, grandparents are living there, their homes are there, their business are there. They are curious to know what is happening around them. And they will rely on this hyper-local content information to conduct their business and lead their lives. You know, this is extremely important hyper-local content information does not exist digitally in 2018. And Vipul and I, with this insight started Lokal, it started as a local content platform, but it is has over the last three years, it has evolved into a lot more. I can tell more about it. But yeah, that’s how we started Lokal Divanshu.
This is really interesting, Jani, you know, I come from a small town as well. And I completely relate to what you are, what you’re saying, because the way things happen in a small town, and the transition that I saw, you know, in my mind, when I, when I, when I, you know, started working in a metro city, it was so different, you know, it’s a complete transformation. And when I go back to my small town, my hometown, and you know, the way things are, the way I react to, you know, habits of people there, the way people, you know, grasp information, the way people gather information, it’s totally different. So, you know, great that you kind of connected to that need, and turned it out into a product that, what it is today. So, Jani, why don’t you take me through the whole journey of Y Combinator? How did it happen to you? How were you, you know, you participated, you got selected and what were your learnings out of it.
So we applied for Y Combinator. So Lokal in its current form is much more than just local information platform. I’ll tell more about it later. But essentially, the first thing that we did that was trying so when we’re trying to understand this user right when we understood that this is a need. And that point only we kind of came up with a name called Lokify. So Lokal had the first name of Lokify, and we applied in Y Combinator then without having any product. So at that point, we got a reply that we were not selected at that point of time. And then after one-and-a-half year of our journey, we applied again, by the point when we applied the already had 350,000 users coming on our platform on a monthly basis and Y Combinator, kind of understood what we are talking about. And they understood how diverse the country is, and how important this is. And that is being reflected in the usage of the product. And we had the interview and that we got selected for Y Combinator. So that is how we got in. And essentially, it’s a very good experience, it’s a good experience, because one day, the startup ecosystem in Silicon Valley is quite evolved compared to the startup ecosystem in India. And that is for a very simple fact that startups are in US for quite some time. You know, you know, there, there are things, you know, a couple of decades back. And there are a lot more people in the US who had made money, to exit in the startups. So generally, we have seen, we have met and seen people who are super hopeful for the future, super hopeful. And they do understand a greater chunk of people understand the nitty gritties of how to build a product, how to fundraise, how to build a team. So that network has been helpful. And that network, so even now, also, if have we have some queries, essentially, we kind of reach out to the partners of Y Combinator, and they’re really, really helpful. So that network has been, you know, it’s a great experience in that way.
I agree. I agree. I think startup ecosystem as you said, in the Silicon Valley is way more mature. But I’m hopeful that you know, things the way they’re happening back here in our country, you know, we will evolve to that level someday and we’ll have we’ll see more, you know, disruptive products and more exits coming soon.
Yeah, that will happen that will happen. We have seen that trend right. So when I graduated from college in 2013, it is much more difficult than what it is today. There are very less amount of funds, there is not mature internet market. You can’t ask and you don’t understand. If you want to reach out to someone to understand nativities like what is an IC or basically, how does it happen? So one of the solutions that I had when I graduated is that, I came to know of this entire VC scenario where people will invest in your company, and I was super surprised that there is no interest to it. So I come from this family where the father is a teacher. I kind of only understand money in this way right? Someone is giving you money he expects the return in the form of interest. So there is an interest, right? So then you kind of understand here, you don’t know this guy, you met him a couple of times, and then he might give you money, to run your business. That’s a very, very crazy concept that today, it is something that has been normalized. Everyone kind of understands how VC works in 2013. It is very, very different. Yes. So we are very few companies, a few startups today, there are a lot more people that we can relate to, a lot more people we can talk to, a lot more people from whose journeys we can learn from. So definitely, the startup ecosystem in India is maturing, and at a very, very tremendous pace. And I’m very hopeful. And that is the reason why we are building a startup in India. Yeah.
True man, I mean, fingers crossed, I think things will happen for good for everyone, as part of the ecosystem out here. So Jani you know, as part of, you know, the initial stages back then, when you were, you know, building this product, you know, what were the? How were you able to crack the code with the non metro users, because the learning graph is very different from non metro users compared to a metro user. You know, adaptation for them is very, very different, you know, for them to download something in their phone. There’s a different, there’s a different intent, you know, how you will get across that, you know, for the initial set of users that you said, you had 350,000 users, you know, when you were part of Y Combinator, how did you reach to that number?
So, yeah, it was difficult, initially when we started, because, you know, I’m a city user, right? Like, I’ve been staying in Bangalore, for six years, I saw a lot of internet products, and I migrated, or actually, I shifted my usage of internet from laptop, to essentially then to mobile. So in my mind, it is very clear, you know, there are a lot of things. So in Bangalore, if you’re in Bangalore today, essentially, you are, you know, internet is not just a place, it’s just, it’s just, it’s not just a place that that exists, it’s just that you depend on it. Aapko bai chahiye, internet se milega, naukri chahiye internet se milega, aapko payments karna hai, internet se hoga, sab kuch hi internet se hoga, everything happens the internet. But for a tier two tier three user who got access to internet, essentially, when Jio made internet, the cheapest across the globe in India, for these people, the mental models exist, there are no mental models in their mind. For us, it’s about you know, we have seen the navigation on the laptop, right, there are multiple tabs that are there. There is a prominent search behavior that we had, if we need anything, we used to go to Google and then search it and then those things kind of, you know, are optimized for mobile today. So everything is about steps. There are multiple steps, there is an understanding of what is the checkout, there is an understanding of where can I find what, all these things don’t exist for the for it or but not existent, at least when we started in 2018 for this users. So it was it was challenging, but we kind of then understood one thing very simply that, you know, you we need to talk with what what it required was that we we had to interact with the user a lot, bohot zyada hume user se baat karna padta tha, basically it’s like this Divanshu what we understood is that the experiences the people in cities have today when it comes to internet products is inferior experiences. That means right today that means it’s like this right? If I wanted something if I go to a shop right especially in tier two tier three and I kind of if I need toothpaste right I tell that guy and he kind of gives me the toothpaste right. But think of an internet experience for a city user, today he has to open the Flipkart then he has to go to some category of wellness or some category of dental then he has to click then he has to choose right? There are multiple steps that are involved right? So ideally, when the internet was built, it is built in this way right A ke upar B bana, 1234, it was sequentially how it happened and the technology didn’t, was not mature enough when products were built. So today like the same experience you can replicate essentially, you kind of tell that you need this and you can find that product right. I can interact, I can interact in a way where my search can happen via my voice and this technology was not existent. So essentially For us, I think because the technology has not evolved from the point and we’ve then got no then we aadat ban gayi humari, we kind of got used to it then our experiences when I talked to this is a specialist mujhe lagta hai ki our experiences are not superior, they’re inferior. And the way we have built it also a platform in that way. So content creation today happens on our platform where voice to text conversion is a prominent mode of content creation on our platform. And the way we kind of, to tell you more clearly about how we have built a platform, is like this, it took us some time to identify what is happening with this user. But the kind of thing that we are doing is that, like, consider my mom, right? My mom is someone I’m switching. I’m switching thoughts simultaneously, but I’m trying to explain you what happened as it’s very exciting load or very minor.
My mom is someone who got access to internet recently, and uses was internet in this way. She only uses it for WhatsApp. Essentially, she wants to look at photographs of my nephew. Right? Entire internet use-case for her is that. And now if I want to tell her that, you know, you can actually so she won’t understand if I tell her there is a classifieds platform, or I won’t, she won’t understand if I tell her what is a matrimonial platform. She wouldn’t, because physical world such a thing doesn’t exist. Right? Right in her world, sorry, not physical world, in her world. In towns, this thing doesn’t take this right. So the way we are building Lokal is also in this way, essentially, this started with hyper-local content. And what we realized is that people in these towns are relying heavily on newspapers and they know that everyone in my town is actually getting newspapers or most of them, it has the largest distribution. And then essentially, and then if I want to get anything done, mujhe kuch karna hai, mujhe kuch need hai. So I go to this newspaper, essentially, if I want to find a job, if I want to post hire someone if I want to get married, matrimonial ad, if I want to buy anything, I used to go to newspaper, if I want to advertise about my product, from a small SME, or about a new shop, they used to go to newspaper and post there, even even congratulating others used to happen on newspaper. So this users understand newspapers or this users understand this concept that everyone in my town is actually consuming content here. And if there is a need that I have, I go there and get get it for sale, the same thing we have replicated on our product today. So essentially, after learning that, you know, we kind of took that mental model, the mental model that paper me sab kuch hota hai, we have built the same, and then our platform became much more powerful, it’s not only a place where you kind of get get to know about local news and community updates happening around you, you kind of get introduced to a place where you can find all the local jobs, and people can actually who are looking, who are looking to hire someone can post a job there. And then there is matrimonial use case, which is there in these towns that is also being fulfilled, there is real estate happening on our platform. So the adoption, so when we understood this, that, you know, replication of their mental model into digital is much easier than to, you know, building it as, as it is how it is built for a tier one user is been the biggest realization. So now when we build products for them, we try to understand how are they solving this? Is this much more important than what happened in US or China? How are they solving it or how it is being solved for tier one user? So yeah, that’s about how we look at building products for these users today, we deeply try to understand how are they solving currently in their lives? And what words do they understand to solve those use cases, and we try to replicate them digitally.
Got it. I think that’s a great insight, Jani, you know, understanding the mental model which never existed for these users. And I completely understand the, you know, for a metro user, like me, I know how a screen would function or Macbook screen would function, or how a phone screen would function in terms of how to access something. But yeah, I mean, you know, creating a product without a mental model in a user’s mind. I think it’s a great way to think also, you know, it’s, I think you’ve completely, you know, immersed yourself in that users mind and created this product, you know, I think and somewhere it comes from the fact that you know, you belong to a small town, and you’ve seen that life and that user, so close. That you can, you know, immerse yourselves in there and create a product or create a way of doing things on a digital screen for them. So great insight there, Jani.
Yeah, and not only me, essentially, most of our team close to 90% people from our team are from the tier two, tier three towns.
Amazing. And they’re all based out of, you know, right now in Bangalore, they’ve been hired from there and are there.They’ll be a bunch of good strength force man for you. Because the way they’ll think it’s very different the way you know, people from the metro users or Metro people think.
Mostly, it is basically, you can relate to it. So this is some, so I have through Y Combinator I was able to interact with a lot of product people in the US. So they can’t relate. Unfortunately, they can’t relate with a country like India, because, you know, like, if you take us it’s a very homogeneous country. Essentially, it’s one language that is being spoken. And, and you have similar sort of structures that are existing culturally, they’re similar. Whereas you take India as a country, right? It’s super diverse. Like, if for every 50 kilometre radius, your dialect changes your your food habits changes, like, okay, and your dressing style changes sometimes. So very, very diverse country. And you should be able to relate to that, if you’re trying to, so at least for us, it has been the case that the team was able to relate and it has been a massive asset for us.
Oh, that’s a great way to think, Jani. So Jani, you know, did you define any metrics? You know, and you wanted to keep a track of them when you were kind of acquiring users in these markets? in smaller towns? Did you kind of keep track of such metrics? And what were these metrics?
So right, when we were building, we had only local news use case. One thing that we were looking at as a product metric was that basically, what is the retention of the user who is coming on the platform, what is the day 1 retention, what is the stickiness factor? What percentage of users are coming via referrals. So these are the metrics that we had. But as we kind of started replicating, or moving towards a platform to solve all Lokal needs. So we are involved, we started as a local content platform, but today it is like this right? For this. For you and me, the fortunate few English speaking users, internet is well built out there, we use everything, we kind of use internet for everything. For these non English speaking users, right? Internet after 2016, they’re just using it for two use cases, which is communication, WhatsApp pe kisi se baat karma, right? or second thing is that to watch videos to get entertained, right? Right. So internet is they are not able to use internet holistically, to consume information that they need or to eventually do commerce, right. So when we realized that location is this Paramount, important entity in a human’s life from this tier two & tier three places, and 90 percent of their needs get fulfilled in this towns, it became super logical for us to solve their needs, and then Lokal is focusing on that problem where we are letting this person use internet holistically and they are doing that by replicating their existing material model. Of; paper is a place that I go for all my needs, along with informational and content needs. So now we have multiple use cases. So then we track success metric for different use cases, like how many, so we have Lokal jobs on our platform, we have matrimonial profiles, we have we have real estate as a use case, we have classified use case we have businesses who are advertising on our platform to reach out to people in their town. So each use case has its own success metric. So let’s say for jobs, it is like how many jobs are coming per day per district? And what is the response rate? How many people are applying for those jobs, which tells you about supply and demand match right? That is one metric. So as this is very similar, right, as your product evolves, your metrics keep on changing. There will be more production issues that drive use cases that drive metrics.
I agree, agree. I mean, if you’re evolving the product, the metrics have to evolve and keep improving the way you track and how you track it. So Jani, you know I, I remember that you know, we met and it’s a disclaimer that you know, we had you recently on the new version of the Lokal platform, you know, yeah, I want to understand from you, what was the thought that came in your mind that okay, I, you know, a design lead product or a design thought out product would help me reach out to the next billion in a better manner. You know what, what triggered you get into, you know, mode of redesign this platform.
So, Divanshu like what we had in our mind was that, basically, we were building our platform with first principle approach. And we had added a lot of use cases on the platform, right. And all that is led by our first principle thinking. So when we thought of, you know, your firm, what we did was basically we thought of taking in experts help, to help us. Basically, we found this problem that if you have too many use cases, how can you make the navigation for this user easy? Okay, so obviously, the users are different, but there is also some avoid education or results that might exist. So we thought of taking help of an expert, and then one of my friends referred your firm and then I came to you guys, and your your work has been good in that regard. How will you make multi use case platform for a tier two user in India? And this is very, very unique problem, because this has not been solved anywhere else.
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think I see as not just a, you know, a problem of business or a problem of getting the next billion users on internet, I think it’s a problem that is related to a social cause, also, because somewhere, if you’re the, the, the non Metro users, as we call them, they come on the internet, it’s a lot that have can happen for them as well. So I think it’s a product that will create a lot of social impact as well. And that’s what you know, you know, kind of created interest in our team to kind of collaborate with you guys for you know, that whole design exercise and all. And, you know, then during this whole, the whole while, you know, as you know, COVID happened, and the entire exercise was to be done, you know, remotely. So that’s a case study in itself, actually.
Okay. Yeah. I think, Divanshu, I wanted to add one more point, actually, I imagined businesses in this way. So when I was a kid, right, I come from a small town called Kodad. What happened is that I was trying to I was preparing for math Olympiads and my father is a math teacher. Now, so this is is 20 years back somewhere around sorry, probably 15 or 16 years back. So for me if I needed a book right, for preparing for those kinds of examinations, my uncle has to come from Hyderabad. It used to come to my hometown, one, one and a half month later, taking the books that are required and giving it to me. So it used to be difficult for me to, you know, access information or, get a book that I like, but today, Flipkart, and Amazon changed them drastically, majorly, because of Flipkart, because they were the one who proved the e commerce market here. And then Amazon came in. So they made so today people in Kodad get access to the same book in a couple of days. Right. So I think for most of the businesses that are social in nature, because they’re solving some need, and if they’re solving need of millions of people, eventually is the social cause only to an extent. But for us, I think your point is valid, because this users that we are talking to in terms of their usage, in terms of product that that they have today. They’re super under-served.
I agree. I agree.
They are underserved only in terms of products that they have access to, apart from that these towns and cities have equally rich an equal number of middle class people. So non English doesn’t mean poor people. Because my father, earns quite a lot of money, to come back to what happens in his town, but he’s not comfortable in English. Right? That is what I was putting across social cause happens in every product, every consumer product is solving some problem. That’s why it exists. And it is social in cause probably here, it’s about these users being underserved with the existing products that are there to solve their needs. Yeah.
I think what happened with COVID Is that the adoption via digitally kind of accelerated, and now obviously, I’ll tell you in the true sense like this right? in this town, right. I could have never imagined a year back, if you tell me that zoom will be used as a measure, measure product for education across the country, which is like India, I would have like locked you off. Right. Okay. But today, what happened is that the digital adoption kind of peaked for certain use cases. And then people are able to accept that one that is, you know, Zoom. Like, what happened is that even in government schools, and everywhere else, people are using this video conferencing tools to teach kids, right? Because today, schools can’t open in this pandemic. So then, this rationalization came, that, you know, you’re spending enough time on mobile as a kid is not a bad thing, which was previously the other way around, right? You’re playing games, you’re wasting your time, but mobile is actually helpful for you. And can let you study. So I have, I have a cousin in my village. It’s 40 kilometers from my town, her mother kind of upgraded her feature phone to a smartphone. And it is because of the education and then she can see. So these are small, small changes that will have impact over a long time. So if you take the journey, right, if you take the journey for me, you and my co founder Vipul who understand English language, it took us 20 years to start using internet for communication, to actually converse, humne internet use karna chalu kiya tha to talk to each other similarly, like Google, or Yahoo Messenger, then to download and store into movies, entertainment, and then some sort of, you know, information, which is essentially, you know, browsing through jobs and Shaadi.com all and then eventually, there is more to it, then we did commerce, it was a 20 year journey. And what happened in the meantime, we kind of the trust went on increasing, the trust kept on increasing right. Now the Trust has increased for the first for tier two tier three users on the internet. So now, the number of things that they can do will also increase.
Right. Right. Great point there. I think yeah, we know, yeah, I mean, if I think of, you know, back, back, when we started using internet, it’s the same thing. It started with communication, it started with entertainment. And obviously, job searches, and, you know, information. Exactly. And now we get this whole, you know, 15-20 year journey is getting, you know, probably done in a year or two years time. So that whole journey is I think, compressed, because there’s so much more to do on internet now. Right, right. So, Jani, I think I think you’ve recently gone live with some of the designs that we you know, collaborated with you on and we produced. Do you do you see any early outcomes, early impact? That, you know, are you seeing as part of the change in users behavior or, you know, you’ve seen as a upside that the designers bringing you any kind of, you know, outcome that you would like to share?
So, Divanshu, I think we are a small team, as you know, right. So we were not able to implement the whole of the changes that you guys came up with. We are, it’s a work in progress. We have slightly made a couple of changes and it is too early right now to comment about that. But definitely, we personally feel and we have interactive users, the experience has been better. But to to quantify that with numbers it’s too early
I completely understand it is too little too early to kind of, you know, to list down an outcome here. So, Jani, what do you see? How do you see Lokal shaping over the next, you know, next three to five years? What is your plan with Lokal going ahead?
Yeah, very simple. We want to launch across 500 districts that we have identified there is a good amount of internet penetration. And we have to capture the local use cases, essentially starting from connecting people to information leads to eventually commerce. So Lokal, I think we are at that right time to bring this user holistically online. And that is what we are trying to do. And we want to do this across 500 districts, and to have around 100 million to 150 million people using our application monthly.
Amazing that that is some scale, man. I think you’re, you’re going after the real set of you know, in India, users in India, and I think, I hope, and I really wish you luck that you get there. You know, as you know, bringing this to almost end of this podcast, you know, as an entrepreneur, as a, as a, you know, co founder of a startup, you know, what is that you would want to, you know, give us an advice to, you know, some of the, you know, people who want to, you know, build a product or you know, build a startup and from your journey from your story.
Yeah, one thing that is, basically, the one advice that I can give is that, you know, it’s obviously an exciting time to start up, one. Secondly, you don’t need to, with the maturity of the current market today in India, especially in terms of number of founders, quality of founders, and markets being identified. You don’t need to do the mistakes that people in 2012 or 2007 or 2013 have done, you can lean on the network, the network, startup network, founder network has been fairly accessible, and they’re very open to share their insights as well. So reach out to these people, build that network, you don’t need to do that mistake, there are two pieces of advice that I can give, we have very hope that you can be super hopeful about future, and startups to avoid mistakes that first time founders or second time founders will also often do and you can do that relying on the network that is existing in India. Yeah.
No, I think I could vouch for that, means the old founder network has been very, you know, receptive. And, you know, they’re ready to kind of help they’re ready to connect you to people who might be able to help you if they can’t. So I think that’s a great thing for us all to kind of grow together and improve, as we say, the startup ecosystem in India and build better products. You know, Jani, here, then I’ll, you know, kind of bring into this podcast and this wonderful discussion. It’s always been nice, you know, chatting with you, and not just, you know, connecting with you on tasks that we were doing with you. But this discussion kind of gave me insights into how you built this whole product. And I hope, you know, people who are listening to this podcast would gain from this discussion and happy to have you here, man. And thank you so much, again, for being part of this podcast.
Equally, equally excited to always talk to you, man. Nice. So Divanshu is a good partner to work with. Yeah, I’m adding that here as well. Cool, man. Nice Talk.
Thank you, Jani. That was such an insightful conversation! Businesses and products get impacted through design in ways more than what we can imagine. If you would like to listen to such more conversations, stay tuned, subscribe to Business and UX Story. Till then, stay safe and keep listening. Thank you!